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#279417 - 28/08/10 02:43 AM
Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
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nikobe
Be Nice (I'm New!)
Registered: 27/08/10
Posts: 6
Loc: London
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Hi all,
I have a question that I hope some of you can help me to understand the answer to.
As I said recently in my first post in the intro section, I am comfortable using the pentatonic scales to improvise and solo over various different blues and rock and other related chord progressions. I can usually tell straight away or with some trial and error, what key to use. However, for some songs, I just can't figure out what the key is and where ever I play the pentatonic (minor or major) scale, I can't get it to fit with the song.
I've reached a point where I'm stating to believe that its my music theory that's holding my progress back somewhat rather than my technical ability. My music theory is quite bad, I think.
So, my quetion is this - When I am trying to solo over a chord progression or song, how can I tell what key it is in and how do I know which scales will fit?
I've yet to properly learn any other scales other than the pentatonic, so I guess this is limiting me, but I reckon I could pick them up pretty quickly.
CHeers.
N
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#279420 - 28/08/10 05:10 AM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: nikobe]
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Oldjono
Professional Forumite!
Registered: 15/09/09
Posts: 842
Loc: Dorset
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Is what you are trying to 'solo' over tuned to your guitar? In other words are you tuned to the recording or to a tuner. There is often a disparity there. Take Jimi Hendrix for example, he often played with his guitar tuned to Eb. Sometimes the recordings can be slightly sharp or flat from concert pitch and this will make things your trying to play sound out of key too.
However improving your modes in any key will always help you hear things differnetly too. Go on to youtube and look up guitar modes for example. this will help you widen you playabillity.
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#279422 - 28/08/10 05:56 AM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: Oldjono]
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Wolfe
Professional Forumite!
Registered: 19/07/06
Posts: 975
Loc: Scarborough
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I'd get out of the Pentatonic and learn the standard 7 note Major scale, which you'll find here.
The Pentatonic is just the same neck pattern with two notes missing. It also doesn't promote much finger dexterity to the same degree that the seven note scale does, tending to steer you into simply rocking back and forth between two fingers instead the more dextrous rippling motions of the 'three notes per string' seven note Major/Minor scale.
As for Pentatonics, you might want to have a read of this thread. Which might teach you something you didn't know.
Just remember that chord progressions aren't random. Every chord in the progression is typically built up out of two, three or four notes of the same scale. Even blues. All though you solo over blues using simplified five note pentatonics, the chords themselves tend to be constructed from the seven note Major/Minor scale.
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#279423 - 28/08/10 10:11 AM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: Wolfe]
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nikobe
Be Nice (I'm New!)
Registered: 27/08/10
Posts: 6
Loc: London
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Thanks Wolfe, those are really useful links. I'd already seen your modes tutorial sticky at the top of the page.
I've just been having a crack at learning the pattern and I'm making progress.
Regarding the pentatonic scales, I already knew that pattern across the whole neck.
The main problem I'm having (and hopefully I'll figure this out as I study the tutorials more) is that once I know the patterns, how do I know where abouts on the neck to base the pattern/scales?.....if I don't know what key the music is in or even if I do know but don't know how to transpose the pattern into that key.
Did that make sense? Hope so.
If you or anyone else can offer any further guidance on this, then that would be great!
N
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#279424 - 28/08/10 10:20 AM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: nikobe]
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nikobe
Be Nice (I'm New!)
Registered: 27/08/10
Posts: 6
Loc: London
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.....Ok, I just read further down the pentatonic scale thread and I think its making more sense now. I can see how to transpose that pentatonic pattern into the different keys.
Just have to find a way of telling exactly what key a piece of music is in now. As I said, sometimes I can tell and sometimes I can get it with trial and error, but sometimes I just can't tell.
I'll definitely need to study the modes a lot more because even if I memorise the pattern, I still don't think I would understand how to use it to improvise over a chord progression.
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#279425 - 28/08/10 11:22 AM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: nikobe]
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Wolfe
Professional Forumite!
Registered: 19/07/06
Posts: 975
Loc: Scarborough
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Yeah. You'll find the Major/Minor pattern is identical to the Pentatonic you already know, just with the two extra notes in it. Likewise, playing in different Major/Minor scales follows the same procedure as it did in that Pentatonic animation i'm assuming you've looked at (where the pattern shuffles to the left one fret at a time to give you a new scale).
As to which scale to use to solo over a chord, that's slightly more complicated. For instance, the Dm chord is the second chord of the C major scale/key, but it's also the 1st chord of it's own scale (the D Minor scale/key). But you'll also find the Dm chord exists in other scales (as the 3rd chord, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th chord). So which of those seven scales can you use to solo over a Dm chord?
The answer is..... all of them. However, if the Dm chord is being used in a progression of chords from the C Major scale then using the C major scale for your solo will not only sound right with the Dm chord, but also with the other chords as well.
You could use the Dm's own scale as well, but that will only sound 'right' when played over the Dm chord. As soon as the rhythm guitarist switches to another chord from the C Major chord progression, it'll sound spectacularly 'wrong'. Likewise for the other five scales/key that the Dm chord can be found in.
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#279426 - 28/08/10 11:27 AM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: Wolfe]
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nikobe
Be Nice (I'm New!)
Registered: 27/08/10
Posts: 6
Loc: London
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....so what you're saying is that in order for a scale to sound right over a particular chord progressions, each of the chords has to exist in the scale. Have I understood correctly?
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#281168 - 21/11/10 02:05 PM
Re: Music Theory Question - recognising keys and the use of scales in solos
[Re: Wolfe]
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